Mayor Pete is throwing God in the face of VP Mike Pence. The impossibly named Buttigieg says Pence should “raise his objections” about the non-reproductive sexual community “with God.”
“My [gmarriage] to Chasten has made me a better man and yes, Mr. Vice President, it has moved me closer to God,” said Buttigieg, a devout Episcopalian.
Buttigieg is so devout that he explains scriptural passages like Leviticus 18:22, where God-Jesus-Holy Ghost said “Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination”, and what Paul said on many occasions, as “This is 2019.”
I’m kidding. He doesn’t say anything about scripture. Let’s look at his argument about being created “that way” by God.
“I can tell you, that if me being gay was a choice, it was a choice that was made far, far above my pay grade,” he added, to a room full of loud cheers. “And that’s the thing I wish the Mike Pence’s of the world could understand, that if you have a problem with who I am, your problem is not with me. Your quarrel, sir, is with my creator.”
Gays, therefore, were made by God. They therefore have no choice in their desires or their acts in accord with their nature. Homosexuality is, of course, non-procreative. Hence gays are part of the non-procreative community.
They are not the only ones. There are also lesbians, also made that way by God, says Buttigieg. Also transexuals, which are people of one biological sex who believe they are the other biological sex. They have no choice: God made them that way, too. Thus, because God made them that way, they are the opposite biological sex, even though they are their own biological sex.
There are also “bi” people, who lust after everybody. God made them too.
So much is uncontroversial. It was Buttigieg’s next argument that shocked some. His implied argument, that is.
God made gays, so God also made necrophiliacs. Necrophiliacs, at least some of them, don’t want their attraction. They do not choose them. They have them anyway. Well, of course they do. God made them that way.
Therefore, it is only right and proper that necrophiliacs act on their lusts.
If you disagree, you are not only a bigot, you are opposing God.
God made gays and necrophiliacs, so God also made pedophiles. Pedophiles, at least some of them, don’t want their attraction. They don’t choose to be they way they are. God made them that way.
Therefore, it is only right and proper that pedophiles act on their lusts.
If you disagree, and you pull back your child on the side of a pedophile, you are not only a bigot, you are opposing God.
God made gays, necrophiliacs, and pedophiles, so God also made zoophiles. Zoophiles, at least some of them, don’t want their attraction. These people avoid zoos. They have these attractions anyway: they didn’t choose them. God made them that way.
Therefore, it is only right and proper that zoophiles act on their lusts.
If you disagree, and you avoid pet stores, you are not only a bigot, you are opposing God.
God made gays, necrophiliacs, pedophiles, zoophiles, and ecosexuals (those who lust after dirt or trees), objectum sexuals (those who lust after furniture and playground rides; this is a real term), pedarests, and every other kind of lust you can think of.
God made all of these people. None of them chose to be the way they are. Therefore, it is only right and proper everybody acts on whatever lusts they have. To oppose this is to oppose God.
Make that is it only right and proper everybody acts on whatever desires they have. For, of course, lust is a desire, and God is responsible for the implantation of the desire. Who chooses a desire?
Therefore, God not only made gays, God made psychopaths, too. Psychopaths have desires, just like anybody else, desires often tied to lusts. Therefore, like gays, psychopaths have a right to act on those desires and lusts. God made them: they did not choose. Only bigots disagree.
Once you think about it, how dare we say God did not make anybody? Why should gays get special privilege in the God-made-them awards? The answer is: there is no reason. God made everybody the way they are. Everybody.
Therefore, everybody gets to act on their desires whatever those desires are. To oppose this is to oppose God.
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Not to imply that this argument holds any water at all, but doesn’t the reverse also work?
“God made me, and I hate gays, therefore it is only right and proper that I act on my desire to abolish homosexuality, because God made me this way.”
That’s what I hate about modern discourse: They are trying (and succeeding) in making Morality an ideological problem. Morality is what it is. Trying to claim the moral high ground to pilfer poor, pandering, political points is extremely distasteful. If he says that in a debate, what can be said against him? Any retort will be labeled “bigotry”. the non-reproductive community is one of the spotless lambs of the left that cannot be touched. This man is trying to steal the nomination by waving a rainbow flag.
Buttigieg is a common Maltese surname. (Interesting note: about a dozen surnames cover 90% of the entire population–there are 10 pages of “Joe Borg” in the Malta phone book).
God made the Maltese that way. Bigot!
Consistency from the left is impossible. It’s a fun exercise to show that their so-called morality ends up justifying the worst things. How do we get Mr. Midwestern Nice to actually say this out loud and in the media though?
I think Buttigieg’s argument isn’t made in good faith, but rather to be clever and trip up interlocutors. It requires significant study see where this goes wrong, and a rare felicity with words to phrase the rebuttal in a way that can’t be defeated by name calling.
I’ve been making this argument for decades—if you go with “God made me this way” every single action can be justified: murder, rape, theft, lusting after children, lusting after the family dog, Scott’s example of hating gays, etc. Of course, this totally denies the existence of the 10 commandents, which I am sure was conveniently removed from these people’s Bibles. Let’s face it, religion is NOT ABOUT GOD anymore. Not at all. It’s about breaking as many commandments as possible on a daily basis and trying to pretend God has anything to do with it. Evil has always worked that way—pretending to be logical and good.
I’m not sure he would disagree with this. The obvious difference would be that one (being gay) can be acted on without direct harm toward anyone else.
Not sure how this article misses that point…
Some people think the ten commandants are really the ten recommendations and you get to pick and choose what you like. If you are a kleptomaniac or a socialist you can just ignore that commandment about not stealing.
The bible proscribes lots of behavior and the early church fathers went even further and came up with the seven deadly sins. Today the democrats seem to be trying to turn the seven deadly sins into virtues.
time for a Godwin.
God made the Nazi’s, therefore the Holocaust was God’s Will.
It doesn’t make any difference whether people are born gay, become gay, or choose to be gay. Being gay simply isn’t even a moral issue at all. Whatever happens between consenting adults in private doesn’t affect anyone else, so isn’t anything to do with morality.
The only reason it is seen as a moral issue is because gay sex, as you point out, is condemned as “an abomination” in the Bible, but then the same Bible says that slavery is perfectly fine, which completely destroys any claim to moral authority it might otherwise have.
As for necrophilia, having an unhealthy fascination with death and dead bodies seems to be a Christian thing, judging by the bizarre preservation of saint’s bodies and body parts.
You can’t choose which sex you want to feel attracted to, but you can choose which sex you want to *be*. We know this is true because Science (a.k.a. Current-Year Progressivism) says so. Bill Nye the Science Guy even did a song & dance about it!
Science also says the world’s going to end in [current year + 10] if we don’t tear down civilization, so I guess we’re all doomed anyway.
Homosexuality is an action, not an identity. It is an important distinction.
Also, you say the bible says that slavery is perfectly fine. I missed that verse. Would you point it out?
Also, preservation of saint’s bodies and body parts??? What are you talking about???
“Homosexuality is an action, not an identity. It is an important distinction.”
Would you be happy to be allowed to have a Christian identity, but be unable to perform any Christian actions, such as being baptised, going to church, or praying?
“Also, you say the bible says that slavery is perfectly fine. I missed that verse. Would you point it out?”
Certainly. God approves the practice of slavery and lays down rules for buyers and sellers (Exodus 21:1-11, Leviticus 25:44). Men are at liberty to sell their own daughters (Exodus 21:7). Slaves can be inherited (Leviticus 25:45-6).
“Also, preservation of saint’s bodies and body parts??? What are you talking about???”
Well, there’s the ‘incorrupt’ body of Blessed Anna Maria Taigi (in Rome), the ‘incorrupt’ body of St Paula Frassinetti (also in Rome), Saint Catherine of Sienna’s head, St Januarius’s blood (in Naples), Saint Teresa of Avila’s hand (carried around by the Italian dictator Franco), Mary Magdalene’s arm (in Fécamp), and let’s not forget Jesus’s foreskin (last seen in 1983 in Calcutta).
“Would you be happy to be allowed to have a Christian identity, but be unable to perform any Christian actions, such as being baptised, going to church, or praying?”
I’m not sure what your point is, are you saying it is an identity? The bible prohibits homosexual acts (and lust), it does not prohibit desire. Just like anger, the bible says – Be angry and sin not, don’t let the sun go down on your anger. In other words, being angry is not sin, but dwelling on it or taking (inappropriate) action on it is.
Slavery: I read the verses and I don’t see that God approves of slavery. He is saying – If you are going to have slaves, this is how you treat them. Another example: God permitted divorce in the laws of Moses but he certainly doesn’t approve of it. As an aside, slavery in the old testament was vastly different from slavery in America.
Saints body parts…: This is not mainline Christianity, I don’t agree with it (I don’t think many Christians do)and don’t feel compelled to defend it. Why do you bring it up?
If moral authority doesn’t come from God then where does it come from?
“I’m not sure what your point is, are you saying it is an identity?”
I think most people would count their sexuality as being an important part of their identity. That said, you brought up identity, and I’m not sure what it has to do with anything?
“The bible prohibits homosexual acts (and lust), it does not prohibit desire.”
1) I don’t care. 2) This is just a ‘distinction without a difference’.
“He is saying – If you are going to have slaves, this is how you treat them.”
If God doesn’t approve of something (like gay sex), he prohibits it. Why didn’t he just say “owning slaves is an abomination” and prohibit it?
“As an aside, slavery in the old testament was vastly different from slavery in America.”
Actually, slavery of non-Hebrews in the OT is every bit as bad as American slavery.
“Saints body parts: This is not mainline Christianity, I don’t agree with it (I don’t think many Christians do) and don’t feel compelled to defend it. Why do you bring it up?”
In your previous comment, you said “what are you talking about?”, so you were implying that it doesn’t exist. I’m glad to hear that you disapprove of it. As to why I brought it up, why not ask Mr. Briggs why he brought up necrophilia in the first place?
“If moral authority doesn’t come from God then where does it come from?”
I’m not sure what you mean by “authority”, but I’d say that morality comes from our evolutionary heritage. We are a social species, so how we treat each other is important for our survival. If you think morality comes from God, do you agree with Biblical rules for slavery, or do you think ignoring the Bible and banning slavery was a better idea?
I’ve always advised my gay friends against the “creationist” argument because in the end one person’s “natural part of human nature” is another persons “eradicable genetic defect”… and it gets the argument no further along.
Moral authority is simply – who makes the moral rules.
Let’s get to the heart of the matter. Your argument is that the bible has no moral authority because it condones slavery. But if our morality comes from our evolutionary heritage then it is whatever our evolved society says what is moral. What if our evolved society says that slavery is moral. Is it then moral? Not too long ago (250 years or so) our society said that slavery was moral. Was it moral then but not now? Have we evolved new moral standards since then?
Do moral standards evolve? What if standards further evolve and slavery becomes acceptable again? Will it then be moral?
Moral authority from evolutionary heritage is not a solution to the problem. Morality is fixed and must have a higher source.
Saintly relics are common in Orthodox Christianity. The protestants threw them out, along with most everything else about traditional Christianity. There are far more Christians that accept the relics of the saints than do not, unless your definition of Christian does not include the Roman Church and the Orthodox Churches.
Every Protestant that is serious about faith *really* needs to learn church history. You will be quite surprised at what you learn.
“But if our morality comes from our evolutionary heritage then it is whatever our evolved society says what is moral. What if our evolved society says that slavery is moral. Is it then moral?”
If our morality comes from God, then it is whatever God says is moral. If God says slavery is moral (which he does), is it then moral? This works both ways!
“Not too long ago (250 years or so) our society said that slavery was moral. Was it moral then but not now? Have we evolved new moral standards since then?”
We haven’t evolved in the biological sense, but it’s clear that societies on average have higher moral standards now than they had 250 years ago. The reasons for this are complex and above my pay grade, but it’s probably partly to do with technology – simplistically, we don’t need slaves because we have machines.
“Morality is fixed and must have a higher source.”
If you believe this, do you think slavery is moral? Also, what use is a fixed morality from God if even Christians disagree about what it consists of? (Example: divorce.)
Morality has kind of gone off in the weeds. It does not come “from” God but is intrinsic in Him. I’m pretty Aquinas wrote on this. Morality is build into creation, and us also by virtue of being created by God. We have to learn from what He created to understand how the world is supposed to work. At is base is the idea that we should learn to make choices that make the world a better place both for ourselves and others. “better” as in closer to what God intended, not necessarily what any one person or group wants. Honesty- I won’t cheat you. Truth- I won’t tell lies about you. Effort- I’ll do as much as I can, I won’t sponge off of you. Charity- I’ll tolerate your mistakes and bad habits if you work on them, I won’t throw you out abruptly. The Ten Commandments are a good first draft. They are good for a tribe of 500-1000 or so- a group small enough you can know almost everybody.
As population has grown and people have learned ways of living have been extended to how large groups can interact with resorting to war as a first gambit.
Right now it seems as though a lot people, such as Buttigieg, are trying to confuse pseudoscientific philosophizing with morals and they want to rewrite the whole schema.
Morals are innate in everyone.
Most Christians and non would agree that the moral ‘standard’ has improved over time.
Someone who’s been wound up by a progressive spotter, will think otherwise. The kind who wants life to be bronze age. Possibly some deep seated need to larp, or something? I can’t see how morals will change going forward. Only if a clear cause of homosexuality, that is natural, may finally resolve that particular argument. Men who think it’s o[tional and that they might be tempted themselves, perhaps have a harder time accepting.
God is unchanging because he is as described in the NT. It is humans who change.
This is perfectly in keeping with the changes in standards of human societies over time.
For really bad examples, see places where they have the doctrine wrong, where torture and crucifixion are still rife. Where rape is acceptable ‘male’ behaviour, beheading is considered fine.
That is an example of how human innate kindness can be circumvented if only they can be persuaded or brain washed to believe in a false notion of God’s will. The belief that God wants them to hate people, carry hatred, act on it. God is superfluous there. Does anybody fel they need God’s help with that?
Gabriel and Jesus both brought messages of Good News.
“Man’s heart has become hard”
Was duly noted, if you believe the Christian story.
If people don’t even believe Jesus existed, then all discussions of Christianity are finished. Most scholars accept that he did. The argument is about whether what he said was true, about himself.
Regarding the title of the post and the references to bible authority from Leviticus: The book says a ton of things which are an abomination. “eating with Gentiles”. Most of it, as I recall, about cleanliness of all manner of scenarios. Pre germ theory.
Reading the book, if they are allowed, would benefit from reading it. I believe it is a sin but not because of Leviticus. Just for all the obvious reasons.
Also, that if Jesus wanted the sin to have special treatment he would have made it more clear. Jesus seemed to make the point most of the time that nobody is being left out of judgement.
Saw that butter man in a video clip and think he looks sinister. I wonder how much heart disease he’s been responsible for. I can’t believe it’s butter man. I’m voting for Trump!
I can’t help thinking he appears vampy, like Sam O’neil from Event horizon. He’s creepy. God isn’t there to be blamed for our disabilities. Stone throwers, blame him for being ‘gay’? choosing to act on his desires. I blame him for his attitude. He seems to be picking a fight with God as creater of everything, then asking for votes!
I disagree with your assertion that God approves of slavery. The New Testament speaks about being set free and no longer being slaves to sins and so forth.
It seems you’re trying to take the moral high ground by ascribing something to God that is just not the case, and concluding that therefore He has no moral authority.
I actually know a great deal about church history. Protestants did discard much of Roman Catholicism. However, Protestants did (and do) embrace the Nicene Creed, the common ground for Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestantism.
“For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” I Cor. 2:2
“I disagree with your assertion that God approves of slavery. The New Testament speaks about being set free and no longer being slaves to sins and so forth.”
‘No longer being slaves to sin’ isn’t an anti-slavery message, it’s an anti-sin message.
Titus 2:9 9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them,
Ephesians 6:5-7 5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
Colossians 3:22-25 22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the LORD.
1 Peter 2:18-20 18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
1 Timothy 6:1-3 1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.
No longer being slaves to sin’ isn’t an anti-slavery message, it’s an anti-sin message.
It’s both, the former tacit, the latter is the Christian ideal. Salvation is spiritual not material.
“For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” I Cor. 2:2
True. It’s the common thread.
“It’s both, the former tacit, the latter is the Christian ideal.”
There’s tacit, and there’s not in the text at all (:
What is your basis of the belief that slavery is immoral?
“What is your basis of the belief that slavery is immoral?”
Simplistically, my personal feelings.
It’s way off the subject of butter man but;
“There’s tacit, and there’s not in the text at all (:”
There’s a lot that’s not in the text at all! Would be nice!
Even The Vatican agrees with you there. Biblical literalists won’t. If biblical interpretation makes no sense with the real world then the bible is wrong or the interpretation is wrong, the reader misinformed or lacking comprehension skills, translation’s incorrect, original text was inaccurate, or Christianity is wrong.
Someone might ask; Why ween’t The Ten Commandments “updated”?
They were, In the NT Gospels, by Jesus, and by Paul.
The commandments (2), cover everything, including your sentiment about slavery.
Nations have the written law. “The state does not bare the sword in vain.“ Says Paul.
There is still a higher power, though, that is the claim of Christianity. Whoever is ‘master’.
RE: biblical interpretation according to St Paul.:
2 Cor 3 ; 6.
“who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”
Those arguing most vociferously for St Paul, ignore what he actually says.
“Second Vatican council stated that the human person has a right to religious freedom.
“Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, they should consider true.””
Where would we all be without that permission?
“Why weren’t The Ten Commandments “updated”?”
They were. The ones we’re familiar with were destroyed by Moses (so how do we even know what they were?). They were replaced with a new set of 13 or 14 ‘Ten’ Commandments which no one ever mentions. These are the commandments actually written by God and stored in the (Raiders of the Lost) Ark.
Exodus 34:12-26 (KJV)
12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.
17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end.
23 Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel.
24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the Lord thy God thrice in the year.
25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
Yep,, a while back, recall the first few books, all in one go, were a heart sink.
Thou shalt…went on for many many verses, dozens, very specific scenarios described too, days for this and that unpleasantry, orders and sequences…
Christians do not care about the Torah, most, anyway. If they’re looking to Old Testament for moral guidance? well. Do you believe them, really?
Buttigieg is like people who are born without sight and can’t define the elements in a picture book, because they can’t see, smell or feel it. The book has print to read and beautiful photos. All the people have been told about all the elements in the book and they know braille, but the book has No braille printing in it. In other words it has no substance to understand it’s elements for them. Let’s say it somewhat different now.
Imagine people without sight with no sensitivity to nerve endings pleasures, smell general pleasurable feelings of mind or hormonal maturity. Does someone born with these difficulties know what is told them about the pleasures of life within the sexes of common Spiritual creation of (Men and Women). For them a man kiss to a man would be the same as a kiss to a woman. Without God’s creative Love, of all the above senses nothing can exist, your blind to how God made you.
Reading this article has now utterly convinced me that we are the product of evolution and thus there is no God. I am certain of it. It is the only logical conclusion that one can reach. This is actually a good thing. No more mental gymnastics. I am chronically ill because of evolution. God didnt make me to be born sick, because God doesnt exist. Instead, it was evolution that made me like this.
Evolution would have killed off any trace of abhorrent sexual behavior eons ago, for the wondrously simple reason that masturbating into the rectum of another man produces no offspring.
So what? Just because Buttigieg can freaking quote the Bible means nothing. Even Satan knows the scriptures, it benefits him to know them as he has misapplied it for his own evil purposes. Knowing a lot about what’s in the Bible doesn’t make you a good person, just means you’ve had some free time on your hands.