Statistics

Officials Demand Mandatory Coronavirus Vaccination, Else Thou Shalt Not Eat

There’s only so many times you can make the Mark of the Beast joke before it ceases being funny. May I beg that if I let someone else tell it just one more time you’ll laugh for the sake of old times?

NYS Bar Association proposes state coronavirus vaccine mandate

Hermes Fernandez Is with the New York State Bar Association’s House of Delegates, who just recommended that the state consider mandating all New Yorkers to take the COVID vaccine when it’s ready.

“A mandate might be something that says ok if you don’t get the vaccine, you cannot go to bars and restaurants. You can’t go to places of public accommodation that draws large crowds. There’s a lot of different things that could occur,” Fernandez said.

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is vaccine.

Of course, you have to spell vaccine in the original Greek spoken by John before doing the math. But it works out to the required figure.

People have lost all sense of perspective because of the coroandoom panic. Their media- and government-induced terror has allowed the inner authoritarians of many to emerge into the light.

https://twitter.com/make_trouble/status/1326832974675972097

(The tweet has since been deleted, but it said all should be made to take the vaccine because WWII. Yes. I should have screenshotted it.)

Attitudes like this are now more common than the bug itself. This female does not remember, and likely has never heard, that Swine flu kill up to 600 thousand in 2009, that Hong Kong Kung Fluey in ’68 killed about as many as the coronadoom, and that Asian Flu in ’57 killed over two million, at a time when the earth’s population was about a third it is now.

You can keep going like that, back into time, finding plague after plague, pandemic after pandemic, on and on. They’re common. Maybe once every ten to twenty years. This is the first one, though, to receive constant up-to-the-moment publicity.

Because of profound unteachable ignorance like that female’s, and a nauseating effeminacy, folks have convinced themselves that this is the WORST INFECTION EVER! With each new media headline, now on every half hour, they are convinced they are going to die unless something is done.

Such as forcibly injecting a new kind of vaccine into your blood. It’s not enough that they get it, you must, too. The streak of Puritanism in our rulers is wide.

There are three main considerations in any vaccine program: (1) its necessity, (2) its efficacy, and (3) its safety.

Necessity

The coronadoom vaccine is not necessary for most people. Here are the population fatality rates for 2020 for the coronadoom and for all other causes (see this link for CDC data source).

A mandatory, forced vaccine would protect very few people under 65, while also causing some harm. The coronadoom is not killing the young and healthy. The unhealthy (fat, diabetic, etc.) and old might benefit, and indeed the vaccine can be recommended to them, accepting it is efficacious and safe.

But it is quite foolish, unthinking, and cruel to require it, to starve people out or shun them and make them take what is not necessary.

Efficacy

Reports are various, but early ones suggest Pfizer’s vaccine has an efficacy north of 90%. For comparison, most flu vaccines are a bit more than half that.

Now I have had long experience with medical statistics, and they always start high and glowing like this, especially in political situations, yet the most often fade to the mean. I am willing to bet this will happen with Pfizer’s vaccine, too.

In any case, even if it does become average, it would be “good enough”, and so it meets the efficacious test.

Safety

Vaccines cause side effects. One example: Fluzone may cause “severe weakness or unusual feeling in your arms and legs”, “seizures (convulsions)”, “high fever”, “unusual bleeding”.

Within 6 months post-vaccination, 156 (6.1%) Fluzone High-Dose recipients and 93 (7.4%) Fluzone recipients experienced a serious adverse event (SAE). No deaths were reported within 28 days postvaccination. A total of 23 deaths were reported during Days 29 — 180 post-vaccination: 16 (0.6%) among Fluzone High-Dose recipients and 7 (0.6%) among Fluzone recipients.

This is one drug of many, but the tale is always the same.

Nobody knows the complete side-effect list of the Pfizer vaccine for the simple reason that there hasn’t been time to study it. Yet many in power are saying it will be safe. Perhaps it will, but it impossible they now know this. Hence they are lying.

Because the vaccine is of a new and usual type, strange and curious side effects might occur. Especially for the young and healthy, there is insufficient reason to take the risk at this time.

We have seen the risk of death in the very young and healthy and young is low. If the vaccine is typical, it is possible the risk of side effects in the young and healthy could be larger than the risks due to coronadoom, especially when factoring in what will surely be a lower efficacy rate.

Enforcement

All of the numbers above, except for the population fatality rate, which is decreasing, are tentative. There is no sense, however, that calculations work in the favor of mandating a vaccine. We do not mandate flu vaccine, though flu kills the young at vastly higher rates than the coronadoom.

The intense desire for a mandate is based on irrational panic and hyperbolic overreaction of the part of our rulers.

The Virginia Health Commissioner, following New York Lawyers, “says he’ll mandate a COVID-19 vaccine”. He says under state law, “only people with a medical exemption could refuse the mandate.”

Line up and get the shot or…what, exactly? Get shot?

There was enough negative publicity that the Governor walked back his threats. For now. Others are still walking forward.

Another: “A document co-written by CIA InQTel Luciana Borio, recently appointed to Biden’s Covid-19 taskforce, recommends linking Covid-19 vaccination with food security and rent assistance.”

Our rulers are quite mad in their insistence of mandating a vaccine.

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Categories: Statistics

69 replies »

  1. And, let us not forget that Gov. Cuomo and Mayor DeBlasio (sp) have NOT been prosecuted as ‘Mass Murderers’ secondary to the FACT that they placed KNOWN Covid 19 infected patients into Nursing Homes with old and, (known to be vulnerable, persons that killed those same individuals. The first reported deaths from this virus were ‘publicized’ out of Seattle and 21 of those 29 deaths were in the same nursing home. That placement demanded by the two named above was a “MASS MURDER”! If not, please explain why.

  2. Briggs: You can still flee New York before it’s too late. If you stay, you agree to the insanity. Also, no bars and restaurants would not equal starvation if people weren’t too lazy or stupid to cook. You can pick up groceries and never leave your car. (Or black market groceries–I see a business opportunity here, not to mention fake certificates of vaccination). Also, vaccines and masks are NOT the number of the beast. Nice try at getting prophecy to give credence to your objections. The mark is not a number—turn it over sideways and what does it look like? Most of this world wears that mark already. You do know most states already have mandatory vaccines, right??? The most likely “mark” at this point, if you must go that route, is the absence of a MAGA hat. The entire world hates Trump and any indication one supports him is immediate starvation and unemployment. No food stamps for you Trump lovers. That’s far more likely than a vaccine being the mark, and more immediate.

    People are already being killed daily in huge numbers by the Covid crew. Starvation in third world countries, insanity from being locked in one’s home too long, etc. Why concentrate on a vaccine? Maybe if people were not so stupid and apathetic…. Humans always wait till the car clears the cliff, THEN apply the brakes. We’re over the cliff, Briggs, waaaaayyyyyy over.

    Really, if we are going to argue “side effects” ALL DRUGS AND VACCINES HAVE TO GO. You can forcibly drug mentally ill and those drugs are horrible. Heck, alcohol has side effects. Should any of these be mandatory or outlawed? Of course not, but not because of “side effects”. Because “mandatory” should rarely if ever be used.

    If we go by side effects, I have a list that should be read to anyone using any drug I ever took. Some are really scary. Should I try to terrify people into NOT taking a drug that most likely will be harmless to them? Again, you’re doing exactly what the vaccine pushers are—using an irrational fear. Argue against MANDATORY and stick with that.

    I’m terribly sorry that stupid, apathetic Americans did not do a damn thing to stop this, but the wheels are in the air and the brakes are useless. Stupid has consequences. I don’t like it, but I see no way out now that we’ve caught air. The lockdown was 100% PROOF that all of this would work. If Americans are too stupid and apathetic to fight against being locked in their homes, they do not deserve freedom. They are no brighter or better than hamsters in a cage with wheel. We are utter failures at self-government. We are getting what we asked for.

  3. Sheri, then Joe Stalin was correct when he told Lenin, just before he died, that the Marxist system would not work. A two tiered system was needed and he went ahead and did just that. We have that system, here and now! The Legal System is just that. There is NO Justice. However, I see you as someone that sees this discussion as an exercise in distraction and not an Intellectual Discussion of issues of the times. Have at it but you would be well advised to NOT show up at the end of my driveway!

  4. ABS is quite sure that once we are injected with some RNA-based exotic vaccine poison our Limbic systems will run clog-free, like newly installed toilets, and we will never again succumb to the temptation to question governmental authority.

  5. So demanding someone show a photo ID to vote is “racist” … but this is perfectly fine? I thought minorities weren’t capable of obtaining IDs that white people can get easily. So how on earth are they supposed to get these vaccination cards (let alone actually get vaccinated)?

  6. Oh, c’mon, man, it’s just a shot, a little jab, what’s the big deal? You’re over reactionarying. They’re only trying to keep us safe. It’s so easy; just wear your mask, observe six-foot social distancing, take your shot, and OBEY GIANT OR GET GULAG!

  7. Try this experiment: ask each person you know this question: “Do you know anyone who is sick with Covid-19?”

    Follow up with: “How many people that you know personally — friends, family, extended family, associates, acquaintances, etc — that have been sick with Covid-19 at any time in the last 9 months?” “How many died?”

    For me, the answers are: 1. No 2. 2 (one of those in Spain) 3. None

    My answers for any flu season would be quite different, except for question 3. very flu season, I know twenty, thirty, whole families down with the flu. Seldom do I know any that die.

  8. It does not help that the side effect list mentions anything experienced, whether truly from the medication or not. (Hmm, a tautology ;0.)

    People are getting huffy about a messenger RNA vaccine. I can see that, never mind that is partly how natural viral infections work. One of the functions of viruses is to see that no genetic information is ever lost ;).

    Biological bodies, and anything physically material, is made of chemicals. Dose and route make the medicine or the poison.

    Would I take this vaccine? Maybe. Should it be mandatory, like the polio or tetanus or smallpox were back in the 50s/60s? Generally not, for most of us.

    Will the tyrants, petty or not, try to make it mandatory? Absolutely, if they can.

  9. What did that Twitter link above say? It appears to have been deleted – “Page Does not Exist” error.

    This virus is simply not deadly enough to justify taking an experimental vaccine rushed to market whose long-term side effects have not bee studied properly. If this was truly a new Black Death, which killed between 30% and 50% of the entire population of Europe between 1348 and abut 1352 – or even 1/10th that deadly – it might be worth the risk associated with an untested and experimental vaccine. But a virus with an IFR barely above ordinary flu, which hasn’t even killed as many people as the Hong Kong flu of 1969 (during which no one would have dreamed of shutting down the world or cancelling events like Woodstock)? Yeah…I’ll pass…and anyone trying to force me to take it is going to get his face smashed in.

    I saw yesterday that some people think the alleged Pfizer breakthrough is just marketing BS anyway – an attempt to be the first to market in order to drive up the stock price and get more lucrative government contracts. Apparently their vaccine needs to be stored at minus 80 degrees F., which makes it utterly impractical to be rolled-out for any mass vaccination program.

    Biden and his people are all-in on permanent Coronadoom lockdowns and muzzles, government coercion to force people to take a vaccine, etc. if he is installed on Jan 20. People better wake the hell up. It’s long past time to be back to normal life, and yet, the fear mongering and panic and coercive measures just get worse. Is it going to take armed insurrection and some politicians losing their heads to wake people up? Trump may need to dare cross the Rubicon if he doesn’t get proper redress in courts for the mass fraud so evident now. He’s the last thing standing between the real tyranny of the Deep State and CCP controlled puppet Biden – the last pillar of the secular Katechon (the spiritual Katechon already fell with the rise of anti-Pope Bergoglio).

  10. There are stories in the MN news about how we need “Mass Testing.”

    As a reminder, over 1 in 3 people in the state have been tested for the virus. This is apparently not “mass testing.” They’ve explicitly said that they want every single person from ages 18 to 35 to be tested.

    I don’t know why they don’t say at this point that literally everyone must be tested and after that they must be tested again. They’re only two steps from there anyway.

  11. Please correct little typo in “Because the vaccine is of a new and usual type, strange and curious side effects might occur.” before it’s too late. I’d bet, giving 10 to 1 odds, that you REALLY mean “UNusual” in this sentence. (You’ve taught me to use real life examples, like betting real money, instead of phony-baloney “statistical” terms.

  12. As for restricted attendance based on vaccinations, expect church services to be at the top of the list. No mass unless you get the vaccine, and each church must submit records of who attended which service in order to remain open.

    If that goes through expect the “health checks” for churches to only go through if they preach the right things. Claim that homosexual acts, abortion, sexual reassignment surgery, etc. are sinful? Suddenly you are “endangering mental and reproductive health” and so you get shut down for that.

  13. Dr. Bruce A. Wineman: I don’t need to be at the end of your driveway, but that’s a different subject. Yes, it’s pretty much like my philosophy classes—interesting, but pretty much useless. Made one think in a world that lost that skill.

    Kip: The answer here is generally zero to all three. With only 127 deaths out of over 500,000 in an entire state….However, one perhaps interesting thing: An individual running for office in Wyoming died of Covid a day before the election (which he won) and had opposed any restrictions. I don’t know that he was ever tested for Covid (most sources say no) and that this is not just propaganda, but it was kind of interesting.

  14. Dennis-

    Terrific comment, especially your last paragraph. The Biden camp has also made noise about hiring 100k, “culturally sensitive,” federal contact tracers.

    We can bet that 100k will be used against political opponents.

    I concur about Trump. I fear he lacks the support Caesar had.

    Biden, and other pols, are absolutely tools for the CCP to remake the US as it wishes it to be.

  15. Fernández and the totalitarian politicians should volunteer to have the COVID-1984 vaccine in the first place, and if they don’t want to be the guinea-pigs they should be fired.

  16. Re. Rudolph above about MN mass testing: I just don’t understand this obsession with mass testing EVERYBODY, even if a person shows no symptoms, especially targeting people age 18-35, who are the people who need to be least worried about the damn virus (and despite the well-known unreliability of the PCR test). If politicians and media don’t understand the PCR test issues, health officials and doctors certainly should, and they should be setting politicians straight instead of feeding their power-grasping obsessions and whipping the public into virus paranoia. There’s no excuse for any doctor or health public officials at this point not to be aware history of the PCR test-driven whooping Cough pseudo-epidemic of 2004-2007. And given the history of problems with PCR tests being used as diagnostic tools, why were they ever pushed as the means to test for and deal with Covid in the first place? The creator of the test warned against its use as a diagnostic tool, yet that’s what politicians and health officials are pushing on a mass scale. As Dr. Clare Craig stated yesterday on Twitter regarding the alleged “second waves” and “surges” in Europe and elsewhere, we don’t have true pandemic now, but a “false positive pseudo epidemic” (and it’s all political and nothing to do with real health concerns).

    This mass testing obsession really is like some kind of mental illness, and those who most proclaim their allegiance to “The Science(TM)” seem to be the most susceptible (and there is a great overlap with those most suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome as well).

  17. I agree that the sense of doom and fear is out of proportion to what many of us perceive as the actual degree of danger. And yes, this is in the same ballpark as previous pandemics; worse than some, much better than others. But does that really matter? You’ve said in some of these updates that it’s over, but it clearly isn’t over. Hospitalizations are rising again, and those of us involved in the care and management of the patients don’t have the luxury of saying “meh, it probably won’t get as bad as it did in the spring.” The fact is we really don’t know what it will do. Presumably, the degree of protective immunity in the population is lower than for all the usual pandemic viruses such as flu, and not knowing the duration of immunity, we really don’t have a solid basis to predict what will happen. I don’t personally believe that the various government actions like stay at home orders did very much; they could have made things worse by sequestering people together….just as the pending decision in NYC to close schools may do. But I do believe that Trump lost the election because he failed on COVID. Not on policies – his policies were fine – but on his management of public opinion and his leadership. He is a great persuader, a populist, someone who understands how to influence people, yet he seemed unable to unite people and give them a sense of confidence in the midst of all these unknowns. It’s tragic.

  18. The purpose of the ongoing Globalist phony pandemic hysteria, the strategery, is to keep the people frightened, off-balance, and unable to organize resistance to the Globalist/Deep State coup against Trump.

  19. As hard as it is to believe, the frickin’ demagogues and the media scumballs successfully politicized and weaponized an effin’ virus. The sheeple are absolutely terrified of the thing. The general public is petrified. The media has hyped the bejesus out of the thing.

    Edward Bernays and Josef Goebbels never dreamed of such an effective scheme to scare the bejesus out of the public.
    __________________

    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with a series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

    -H. L. Mencken
    New York, NY 1918

  20. Dean-

    That’s absolutely right.

    Playing Calvinball with the WuFlu hysteria and rules is one of the fundamental parts of the globalist effort to grind down and eventually crush the human spirit.

  21. https://summit.news/2020/11/13/report-airlines-to-require-health-pass-vaccine-certificate-before-allowing-passengers-to-fly/

    Already floating “Health Pass” and Covid vaccine proof (apparently it’s ok if you have some other illness, just Covid is the obsession!) in order to fly, to buy a concert ticket, take a taxi, (even banking and financial services!!!), etc., etc., etc.

    And Fauci today said “now is the time to do what you’re told.” Trump needs to fire this sick piece of garbage.

  22. The Ghost of Ken Earle:

    ”I do believe that Trump lost the election because he failed on COVID. Not on policies – his policies were fine – but on his management of public opinion and his leadership. He is a great persuader, a populist, someone who understands how to influence people, yet he seemed unable to unite people and give them a sense of confidence in the midst of all these unknowns. It’s tragic.”

    Trump was unable to persuade morons, fools, and the wicked, but that’s the way of the world. Tragic indeed.

  23. More and more I’m thinking that the mask focus is not so much to exert control (though I’m sure that’s part of it) but rather to create an Emmanuel Goldstein.

    New restrictions are coming down and my mask-friendly relatives and acquaintances are mad at them, but they always follow it up with “the people who don’t wear masks are to blame for this!”

    The lockdowns work great by themselves as a means of showing the control the government can exert. But by themselves they are limited, since eventually people will get fed up about them and turn their anger towards the government. By hyping masks, they give an easy alternate target to that anger. “Sure, we’d like for you to be able to visit your grandchildren, or run your business, or have a proper funeral service. But those people without masks are getting everyone sick and forcing our hand!”

  24. Dennis:

    ”…it’s ok if you have some other illness, just Covid is the obsession”

    Isn’t that odd? They don’t care if you’re flying with multi-drug-resistant tuberculosis, or if you’re shedding Clostridioides difficile, or the flu, or any of a dozen rhino viruses, or other corona viruses, or crypto, or dengue fever, or hanta virus, or enterovirus, or staph, or hep, or yellow fever, or mumps, or valley fever, or monkeypox, or scabies, or measles, or typhus, or yellow fever, or Ebola, or whooping cough, or bubonic plague,
    or rubella, or leptospirosis, or e. coli, or Stupid Fecking Moron disease. Nobody cares about those. But noOooOo!— COVID cold is the end of the world!

    Proving, of course, that Stupid Fecking Moron disease is the most dangerous threat to mankind. Dr. Sheri called it, first, and loudest.

    Oh, and Ken — he didn’t lose the election.

  25. I see the mandatory vaccinations like auto liability insurance in various states. You cannot drive a car off a car lot without both liability and collision insurance. I don’t have a problem with that.

    Now that I have been tested positive for COVID-19 yesterday, I am thinking that all you folks should get some shots to protect my precious posterior.

    Note that there was NO advice on what to do when I got the notification from CVS Drugs The best I could find was to stay home. I basically feel fine with about a degree of fever and hope to skate by this will minimum problems.

    I am a new case!

  26. To Bob and anyone diagnosed with covid: Please don’t do nothing. There are drug protocols that disrupt covid and prevent it from becoming disastrous. Two highly respected docs make the case, one a Nobel prize winner who discovered that ulcers weren’t caused by stress, but by bacteria.
    Here’s a paper that outlines a study and various protocols: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002934320306732
    Here’s Dr. McCullough on video presenting the info in the paper:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cxmhvZ6eEI4&t=187s
    And here’s an interview with Dr. Borody: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=93jI7Gl3yic
    People are suffering or dying needlessly because they are sent home to quarantine with no intervening treatment.
    And, Bob, please get plenty of fresh air with no mask so that you are not “reinoculating” yourself.

  27. My doctor is a coronadoom pod person and honestly I would just get a new doctor if it weren’t for the fact that he is always on time and all I need him to do is write me a prescription anyway. But he told me I would be the last on the list of people getting the vaccine. First are healthcare workers and then a lower tier and so on and I’m probably last. I got the feeling that he was trying to upset me but I just kept saying great! Sounds good!
    I’m just looking at the Bronze Age collapse with fondness and putting off that diet till the famine. I just made baked apples with cinnamon pecan strudel. Yum!

  28. Bob.

    Why did you get tested? That’s baffled me about everyone. If you’re not going to the hospital why do it?

  29. Forced mask wearing is not remotely analogous to mandating people carry liability insurance to own and operate a motor vehicle.

    Firstly, the actual or proximate causal connection between any one person getting an infinitesimally small virus – one among many hundreds, perhaps thousands, of ordinary virus floating around the population – is much more difficult to establish than the actual or proximate cause of a car crash. People get viruses for many reasons and in many ways – it would be impossible in most cases to establish which ordinary interaction in one’s daily life – if it resulted from any personal interaction at all – was the cause of one getting most routine flu or cold-like virus. It’s not difficult to establish fault in most car crashes. Yet, we’ve never insisted before that everyone everywhere should be permanently defaced and forced to submit to a humiliating imposition on one’s person in order to be allowed to leave the house go about one’s daily life. If you are particularly fearful of the virus or deem yourself more at risk, by all means muzzle yourself. Just don’t insist others do so as well in order to make you feel less alone in your viral paranoia.

    Secondly, the risk of being in a serious car crash on any particular car trip that might cause serious injury or death to oneself or others is actually much greater for the vast majority of people than the risk of dying from this ultimately rather mundane flu-like virus. It’d be interesting to know why, for example, those insisting public schools must still be closed because of Covid safety concerns (though the IFR for ages 0-24 is around .00002% – effectively zero; and not significantly greater for teachers in the 24-50 range, still around .02%) haven’t previously insisted on zoom school only because the risk of being in a car or bus crash on the way to school is just too great for society to allow.

    Thirdly – though perhaps I should have put this first – there is no evidence that masks actually work for their claimed purpose! Insurance unquestionably does. Pay your premiums, get in a crash, and you (and whoever you might crash into) will be covered by either yours or the others guy’s policy (or both in some cases) for any harm done. There have been no reliable double-blind, control group studies to show the efficacy of generalized public mask wearing in preventing or slowing the spread of viruses. In fact, those done prior to 2020 show just the opposite. And even the WHO and CDC (and Fraudci himself earlier this year) until recently recommended against routine public mask wearing in everyday interactions for people who are not sick. They only recently changed their recommendations because of political pressure (politicians adopted masks as an easy way to signal virtue and gauge overall public obedience to the regime). Some half-assed “studies” throughout this year have attempted to show masks work, but none stand up to rigorous analysis, and are themselves usually deeply biased by political motives. Interestingly, the only serious control group study done this year with scientific rigor, from Denmark, is having problems finding a publisher (one of the researchers behind it said they have not yet found a journal with the courage to publish – though I don’t know why they don’t just release online and say to hell with traditional publishing). Guess why? Hint: It’s not because it supports the PC line in favor of mask mandates, else it wouldn’t be so hard to get published.

  30. Dear Bob, I’m glad you posted your comment, God bless you
    Well said!

    At risk of incurring more wrath, please attend Accident and Emergency if you feel shortness of breath even if you believe it is manageable. Take no notice of all the downplaying and the big talk, forgive me for the unsolicited advice

  31. Comparing requiring a driver’s license to drive to requiring a vaccination to live is asinine.

    We deny driving to those who refuse the license, shall we deny life to those who refuse the vaccination? That make you feel safer, eh?

  32. As for forced vaccinations, I really don’t understand the people that get angry at those of us that object to them (and especially those of us that refuse to get them).

    If the darn things work so wonderfully then you shouldn’t care if I don’t get one because YOU’RE protected by yours, right? So why get all bent out of shape that I don’t trust your government telling me I have to get an injection of God-knows-what in my arm? That only makes me question your motives (and intelligence) even more (and puts me in a state of mind where rejecting your orders by force becomes more likely).

  33. Interrupting, but hey,

    “We deny driving to those who refuse the license, shall we deny life to those who refuse the vaccination? That make you feel safer, eh?”

    It’s only asinine when you reframe the argument that way.
    Nobody’s going to be denied ‘life’ if they don’t have a vaccine

    The situation is the same as denying staff to work if they haven’t had vaccines.

    In any event, it isn’t going to be necessary to do any such thing as enforce vaccines. It;’s going to play out the same way that other vaccines do.
    Just like with flu!!!

  34. So, Joy, what exactly are we going to deny people that refuse the vaccine?

    Plenty of people saying that you won’t be allowed to work or engage in commerce … that’s pretty damn close to being denied life if you ask me.

  35. Zumdfolge,
    As for forced vaccinations, I really don’t understand the people that get angry at those of us that object to them (and especially those of us that refuse to get them).”
    Maybe some do, I don’t because there’s no need. It doesn’t all hinge on the 100% take up or even anything close. It needs to be only as good as flu to start to have the desired effect on those most vulnerable and on provision of public health.
    Same as with Flu, just like I said at the end of my comment. (Ironically, I’ve spent ages saying it’s nothing like flu, hence the exclamation marks. )
    As for denying life? I think as far as employment law is concerned, there’s always some kind of proviso in the contract. That’s not denying life. What would be denying a livelihood is if some political, mad, badly informed power hungry American authority made it some kind of overarching “law”.
    If haughty people on the internet are getting angry with YOU or others because you don’t like vaccines or are an “antivaxer” they aren’t really understanding the situation. (Given that there aren’t enough anti vexers to make a difference in the scheme of things.)
    What people get mad about is denial of self evident truth based on a lack of exposure to the given situation. I.e. ignorance.
    I am not calling you ignorant, to be clear. Just many who become angry or furious even, are doing so without the full compliment of appropriate information. Just as the denier side claims about ALL others, as if there’s only two sides to this

  36. Just discovered another casualty of Covid.
    Funghi the Dingle dolphin has disappeared…for three weeks…all the tourists are on lockdown. Now he’s disappeared as mysteriously as he appeared. Maybe it’s because of Biden thinking he’s Irish.
    I’m genuinely sad about this

    Hope he’s just missing the tourists but he’s never been that long without making a show.
    I fear it’s an omen
    Poor Funghi

  37. It’s a simple question Joy: what things do you think should be denied to people who do not get a vaccine for COVID-19.

    You spent a lot of words not answering the question, almost as if you know that if you were to state your position openly no one would support it.

  38. Rudolph

    Did you read what Joy wrote?

    In response to Z:
    I (Joy) don’t [get angry at those of us that object to (or refuse) them] because there’s no need. It doesn’t all hinge on the 100% take up or even anything close.
    It needs to be only as good as flu to start to have the desired effect on those most vulnerable and on provision of public health. [The 2017/2018 flu vaccine participation was under 40% and wound up with 20 Million flu cases and 60-80,000 deaths]. [So the “desired participation rate” would be north of 40% but probably “good enough” at 60-70%.]

    Joy also wrote “some political, mad, badly informed power hungry American authority made it some kind of overarching “law”.” [feel free to read Joe Biden there]

    She mentioned about Employment requirements for vaxxing, but those make the most sense for the healthcare workers (nursing homes, clinics, hospitals, etc.)

    Joy can, at times, be difficult to read, but she was quite lucid in her comment to Z

  39. In fairness to all. I see where Joy fell off the rails in her support of Bob’s comment but based on her comments thereafter, I THINK Joy was MOSTLY responding to Bob “having tested Positive” for Covid.

    Rereading Bob’s comment, I believe Bob confused state legal insurance requirements ” auto liability insurance in various states” with contractual insurance requirements: “You cannot drive a car off a car lot without both liability and collision insurance.” This would ONLY be the case IF you borrowed the money for the car. So Bob’s comment was lacking. Being from the UK, I don’t think Joy totally understood the nuances.

    The ONLY legal consequence I could support, would be the denial of “visiting” access to publicly run medical institutions, nursing homes, hospitals. I’m certain privately run institutions would do likewise.

  40. John B it’s a fair cop

    Just to repeat there’s no reason to think this should be any different from flu vaccination. There will no doubt be some discussion about vaccination of children to help speed up herd immunity and allow children to have contact with the elderly or middle aged without being a risk.

    Prisons and other institutions where individuals are forced into close proximity will all need to be considered as urgent for vaccination along with the usual roll out for flu and pneumonia.
    Factory workers can be offered the vaccination and those who don’t take it up will be taking their own risk.
    Military personel are likely to be obligated to have injections, they usually are.

    The Yorkshire ripper just died of covid.
    Doesn’t bring anyone back

  41. Don’t look now … just based on weekend’s WoM, we’ve got at least another two weeks of “this wave” with deaths approaching 2K by December. Is it going to get worse? We’ll see.

    Kip Hansen:

    My answer to one is one (EMTs performed an emergency tracheotomy)
    Answer to two is at least a dozen … at least three hospitalized … of the not hospitalized, one suffered severe body aches for two straight days, another lost the sense of taste and smell for months
    Answer to three is two as of now

    I never personally knew any one hospitalized from the flu, let alone died

  42. Number in ITU or serious/critical is 32,000 last time I looked yesterday. It jumped in one go from 19 t5o 31000, highest I’ve seen it since discovering the site.

    People are just going to do their best and nobody can do better than that.
    And on that note. I get will Farrell and Farrell Williams mixed up

    https://youtu.be/ZbZSe6N_BXs

  43. Just checked and it’s 20,703
    Yesterday it went to 31, then to 32. I thought it must be a mistake because the jump was so big.
    Thought the numbers were collected by “a computer robot” from all over the place.

    That kind of difference suggests a typo which I thought wasn’t possible in that magnitude considering how they accept/receive their umbers?

    It looks more likely now though, being 20, 000.

    Not far off the highest I saw it last time at around 22,000, from memory
    It’s a pretty huge error though for something so important. When I click “yesterday” or two days ago it isn’t admitting to the error!

  44. My only other thought was the column is right next to it is deaths/Million which is 32

    Maybe the table loaded badly. Every once in awhile WoM freezes up on me and I have to reload

    Still 21 is the wrong direction …

  45. Bob: Auto liability insurance does not require injecting a substance into your body. If you had to get a tetanus shot, flu shot, or pneumonia shot, etc to get the insurance, would it be a big deal? Having or not having those vaccines may affect to outcome to auto injuries. It’s a reasonable demand.
    Elon Musk tested positive twice and negative twice, same day, same lab. There’s a problem with this testing.
    Testing positive—I test positive to a TB scratch every time. I never had TB, was never exposed, etc. Yet I test positive.
    Those of us who react to medications and vaccines differently (and end up in the hospital) don’t care for those who apparently care nothing about us and don’t care what happens to us. Oh, and for us being “exempted”, try getting a mask exemption. I can’t imagine getting an exemption no matter what your story is. Vaccination or don’t eat.
    Testing seems useless based on the number of false negatives and positives. Best to look for symptoms, etc. There are medications to treat Covid, unless you have a Biden-loving doctor who will let you die before he uses any.

    Zundfolge: Agreed. The one thing that is necessary, however, is to keep very young babies away from everyone until they can be vaccinated or build up antibodies. Babies get whooping cough and can die. So keep them home.

    Joy: We already have mandatory vaccines for kids to go school and for certain workers. It’s a short step to EVERYONE. You’re in England and you can’t see that? Since you clarified, anyone not wanting vaccinated cannot work in a school, prison, hospital, hospice, etc. One also supposes these workers must have EVERY available vaccine to be safe. (Fungi the dolphin may have left since his human playmates deserted him. Can’t blame him, can you?)

    Everyone: Fauci now says you will be wearing a mask and social distancing EVEN AFTER A VACCINE IS CREATED. So, there’s nothing useful about a vaccine except to the drug company that hits the gold mine of cash. At least not according to Fauci. Also, Tapper and Fauci killed Santa and there will be NO CHRISTMAS this year. Start now breaking this to your kids.

  46. JOy: “In any event, it isn’t going to be necessary to do any such thing as enforce vaccines. It’s going to play out the same way that other vaccines do…Just like with flu!!!”

    Well, no it’s not, so quit trying to gaslight people. Have you not heard all the talk of introducing new “health passports,” tying travel, jobs, concerts, dining, even banking and other commerce, to one’s submission to the Covid vaccine regime? Ever heard of such things being promoted for regular flu (which Covid is barely more serious than)? Wake up! The obsession with mass vaccination for a virus with an IFR in the range of flu is even more insane than the current obsession with mass PCR testing.

    Let’s see…trust my immune system and take some Zinc, vitamin c, and vitamin d supplements (since my survival rate in that case is about 99.9%), or inject and experimental mRNA vaccine whose long-term effect are unknown, whose effectiveness is uncertain though it claims 90% (less than my immune system for this virus!), all in order to help enrich scum executives at Big Pharma! I saw an article yesterday masquerading as a news article, but which was really a vaccine PR release, which said that while expected side-effects are “technically mild” they could still “make going about daily life difficult” for some. Oh, please, sign me up to be injected with this lovely cocktail so I can get a cookie and a pat on the head from Dr. Fraudci and Co.!

    And now Fraudci (and I’m sure you’re beloved Whitty would agree!) is saying masks and anti-social distancing will still be required even after a vaccine. What’s the point then? It’s all show, and all a fraud. The Covid plandemic is the biggest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. Don’t you see this is all about social control and tyranny, and nothing to do with health!!! Wake the F up people!!!!! And it will only get worse due to the fact that half the country voted for a dementia-riddled crook dedicated to a social and political program of pure evil, and whose first “Covid policy” hire was a guy who thinks it’s a crime to live past 75 (hey, new for ya? Your new boss is 78 – please top him for us!).

    As for the ongoing car insurance thing. I’ve outlined objections to Bob’s argument in detail above, though I think Briggs misunderstood Bob when he re-framed it as and issue of requiring a license to drive at all and and not just having liability insurance.

  47. John B, That’s entirely possible I might have misread the column as I’ve done so before *privately, but since I looked several times at different times, I’m fairly certain I was looking in the right column. I look for the red and go three spaces to the right since y vision doesn’t allow for a spanned out overview. It’s going fast, so sometimes I can’t even read the number at all without maximum zoom.

    So if the site has done strange things in your observation, it’s probably a computer thing. The site must be rather busy right now!

    Anyhow as you say it’s on the up and back to where I first discovered the place.

    How come our figures officially match WoM and Americas don’t? Is the delay for some specific purpose? Is Worldometer ‘ours’? Heaven forfend.

  48. It’s a combination of population, size and processes
    The US covers 4 time zones (not counting Hawaii and Alaska)

    Interestingly Alaska had 4 time zones but legislature changed it to two

    This is interesting (Railroads launched the US Timezones based on Canadian Sir Fleming World Timezone proposal):
    http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/gilded/jb_gilded_timezone_1.html

    Another Rabbit Hole (The history of timezones starting with Sir Fleming – it’s a deep rabbit hole):
    https://www.thoughtco.com/what-are-time-zones-1435358

    China which SHOULD have 5 Time Zones has one

    About WorldoMeter

    Worldometer is run by an international team of developers, researchers, and volunteers with the goal of making world statistics available in a thought-provoking and time relevant format to a wide audience around the world. It is published by a small and independent digital media company based in the United States. We have no political, governmental, or corporate affiliation. Furthermore, we have no investors, donors, grants, or backers of any type. We are completely independent and self-financed through automated programmatic advertising sold in real time on multiple ad exchanges.

  49. Thank you, John B,

    May be some time then,
    On worldometer, Recall reading some kind of intro but don’t remember the US part, maybe our page says something else? I do believe different countries are ‘shown’ different things. I recall them saying that Johns Hopkins uses worldometer as does the BBC!
    Dark horses everywhere.

    Am I to believe YOU are part of the group, since there were not quotes?

  50. Sheri,
    “We already have mandatory vaccines for kids to go school and for certain workers. It’s a short step to EVERYONE.”

    There’s no reason to think things will suddenly change to ‘everybody’ for Covid, unless you believe the same sources who don’t tell the truth the rest of the time. It’s a rather huge step, not small.

    To see ‘the thin end of the wedge’ or ‘slippery slope’ is an argument that isn’t probative, although rational and popular with those opposing vaccination. It’s a form of extrapolation, ignoring all negative feedbacks, checks and balances, legal and popular ones.

    Knowing what is true and what already happens is a help in knowing what’s likely and what’s feasible or desired. Medical, legal and political considerations seem to pull in different directions, but there’s only likely to be a few who already have an issue with the flu vaccine, who have problem with Covid vaccination. So There’s not a real problem here as far as I can see.

    Since you clarified, anyone not wanting vaccinated ~~cannot work~~ in a school, prison, …“ no I didn’t say that / didn’t intend to imply it
    “One also supposes these workers must have EVERY available vaccine to be safe.”

    No, each workplace has different rules and it is a contractual obligation. So for example, in clinical work or where work is to be carried out on wounds, face to face contact with patients, there are separate requirements than for staff who work in the office, or on admin side.

    This is all handled by an occupational health department who also have a role in ratifying employment. They don’t only check vaccine status of course but all medical history, criminal history, employment history are all checked by HR. Nobody’s going to go for a job they know they’re not qualified for and that includes vaccine status?

    I mentioned other institutions as a list of where it would be wise to start looking to offer staff vaccination. That’s a long way from forcing or mandating.
    There’s a case in healthcare and residential care facilities such as prisons because there are vulnerable (captives) AND staff, who would be put at risk along with the community by those going in AND out. It is as much about treating potential “reservoirs” as anything to do with who ‘matters’ to who.

    There’s infection control *what’s healthy or safe, and there’s “health and safety”. Not the same.

    The latter is used and abused by many for their own purposes that have less to do with the health or safety of subjects, more to do with the monetary and shallow political interests of businesses and public authorities.

  51. It’s well worth a visit but I’ve no doubt you visited when you were over here.

    It still doesn’t explain why the American media even CNN doesn’t take the data from WOM which is apparently accurate according to other nations.
    It doesn’t matter though, the data’s usually only a few days behind what actually happens “officially”.
    That’s good enough for indication purposes.

  52. As has been pointed out many times, the CDC utilizes death certificates.

    This process is laborious and time consuming.

    Meanwhile, each state’s epidemiology department sends weekly reports to the CDC so that the import of disease and on going issues can be appraised there. The actual deaths are not as important to the CDC as the state of infections in each state or region. If people were interested they could search out each states report.

    I met UK people on the continent but haven’t actually been to the UK … sadly

  53. The hospital data here is the most accurate and useful measure according to our statistician but the media wouldn’t have it. Thought deaths were being kept from them.

    So suspicion was on both sides and still is about conspiracy to increase AND hide numbers.
    It’s sad, really.
    People are just trying to do their job.

    What do deniers think they’re achieving? You’re one John, what the point in all this?
    Who does it serve? If no answers or truth are uncovered that all can agree about?
    Feel free not to answer

  54. Joy

    What is it that I deny?

    The ONLY thing that I deny is that lockdowns do any good.
    I’m okay with masks.
    Even you have expressed a level of denial that wearing masks outside is pointless; but, as has been shown many times people in the US have been rousted from sitting in parks without masks.
    kayakers and surf boarders have been arrested on California beaches for not having masks
    There was an incident where a jogger WITH a mask collapsed and died.

    I don’t even agree with Briggs’ points above and in the past about testing AS LONG as the testing is used as a proxy … If you look at the WoM US “CASE”, even though there was very little testing in the beginning, the peak “CASES” happened around April 9 or 10, with the peak death around 10 days later on April 20th. The next peak for CASES was July 21st with the peak death 10 days later on August 1. Cases were still climbing by mid-November here and so deaths should continue to rise until at LEAST December 1 and by the end of the week we should know whether cases continue to rise or start falling again … if rising, deaths will continue to climb past December 1 … if cases start dropping we have our third wave or ripple defined.

    Cases are pretty useless determining who is “sick” and who isn’t, but they work well as a proxy (at least in the US) … even world wide it seems to work with some variations … but the number of cases will not help us determine the number of deaths

  55. Joy

    What’s really weird is the UK

    UK doesn’t have multiple waves yet but UK’s first CASE PEAK is the SAME date as the UK’s first DEATH PEAK!

    That’s odd!

  56. I referred to ‘denier’ because you claimed to embrace the term. Now I know you mean it without claiming to be one! It was saucy. See what trouble it gets you in making jokes?

    Masks? We agree. Aside from the red herring of the jogger who was probably not well in any case. Every year there’s a number of individuals who die while doing exercise. There are multiple causes and predisposing factors. Again, being male and middle aged is where the massive heart attacks often occur. Big hearts, big muscle bulk, big oxygen requirement. Taking personal risks is a matter for individuals, not for nosey authorities.

    Regarding testing. You describe what’s happening anyway over here. I mentioned months back, that in the UK we had precious few tests from early on. We were rationing them very carefully with clinical precision. Which is more precise than military precision!

    That was a big problem over here but not as bad as the media made out in affecting the overall outcome, just one factor that was sub optimal from the start.

    We had almost none. We had to discover the Chinese tests weren’t any good, invent a test, test that test, manufacture the tests, roll out the tests and evaluate results. All while the peanut gallery was throwing nuts. Our initial supplies came from China and £billions had to be rejected that were,
    “worse than no test at all’.
    Similar for PPE. We were registered and recorded as being the most prepared for pandemics in the world or euripe, one of which test was PPE! ‘They’ didn’t account for a respiratory epidemic! That’s the intergovernmental Eurocrats for you. Maybe it was a WHO inspection, I dunno but the media made much of it.

    I also mentioned ages ago that this was one of the US’s ‘errors’: They caved to cynical pressure from media to roll out test packets to everybody.

    So, they did, with warnings to keep it legal and honest. Unfortunately those tests were as worthless as those we had rejected or considered of little use in individual case use, or ‘at all’. Trump did what he thought would silence the critics. The FDA aren’t entirely straight forward in my opinion but that’s another matter.

    Seeing what our media was doing with our health minister was no doubt instructive in Trump’s world of decision about giving people what they want.

    Then the same critics blamed the authorities for not having good or reliable enough tests! Briggs also added to the argument on the “case’ numbers no doubt on the basis they were being abused. By which time “you-all” were on a roll. Just a runaway train!

    Did that all make sense? Hope so.

    We were sharing our experience in daily briefings and our guys WEE no doubt talking to yours. Don’t believe otherwise. Both sides made a sterling effort under extreme adverse conditions.

    One of our engineers likened it to going into a shed and coming out with a jet engine in terms of what had to be built from almost a standing start. Whether you look at tests, ventilators, PPE, and the logistics. Then there’s the vaccine!

  57. UK doesn’t have multiple waves yet but UK’s first CASE PEAK is the SAME date as the UK’s first DEATH PEAK!I
    If I understand what you mean, it’s because we didn’t have many tests to discover the ‘cases’. Or prevalence. The case graph is not comparable with now because we had few tests to our name and most of them were dud.
    Forgetting how ill those individuals, (just positive tests for covid.)
    So now it looks as if we’ve got a lot more cases than in the initial phase just because we’re catching more of the ‘ice-berg.’
    The thing I tried to pre-empt a while back was that this would be used by media. That the wave of death was going to ‘be enormous’ because look at the cases this time! There was no proper calibration to know if the graphs were meaningful at that stage. Or rather they KNEW they were not, but media didn’t care.
    ONS. *the latter had to alter their working over the board to provide Ministers with the information they needed and to help reduce controversy.
    Luckily, they have a better handle on the numbers than that and aren’t relying on WOM. They’re doing prevalence testing and use hospital admission data to know how many people are becoming seriously ill. They’ve set up other ways of sampling now and reporting is more streamline.
    I’ve been using ‘serious/critical’ as a measure for most countries but of course some haven’t changed their number since months back! Namely India and Brazil. I guess their ITU’s are full and that’s the extent of data collection! They’re “busy” is all you need to know.
    The US is collecting regular numbers on that as I’ve been checking minute to minute and know it’s not a useless check. A better indicator of the direction of the ‘wave’.
    When I try to think what’s going to happen with the numbers my mind goes immediately to human behaviour and what I know about people given the information they’ve been shown. There is such a thing as fatigue. As soon as figures are seen to rise, so the public will respond appropriately. The public should need less hand holding going forward than they did initially.
    Assuming the data is honestly shown, the media are just a spanner in the works, trying to amplify signals and warp them. Who votes for them?

  58. John B
    WEE = WERE in previous comment,
    This is a bit clearer:
    Regarding timing of the peaks:
    Looking at the wave on the UK only, on Worldometer re timing of peak.

    April11th, when a peak of people died in hospitals and places where testing was being carried out, (considering tests were rationed) Those peaks in “new cases” were mostly the same individuals as those dying.

    So “Cases” and deaths appear to coincide.

    If the “cases” was a true reflection of actual number on April 11th it would have been higher and the peak would have revealed the timing of ‘peak detection number’ followed by ‘peak death’, up to three weeks later.
    ~
    Our definition regarding cause of death has always been:
    Those having died and tested positive for Covid.
    The time limit was altered to bring us in line with the rest of the UK (far fewer people).
    That meant we suddenly “lost” five thousand deaths from the count

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